Fuel for thought

Anybody of a green persuasion politically should probably desist from reading the rest of this blog because it is about a motoring enthusiast who has come up with a simple yet ingenious way for people to save money on their petrol.

The idea is for private car drivers to club together so they can negotiate a bulk-buying discount from petrol stations in a similar way to big companies.

The concept is straightforward enough and thanks to Ben Scammell, a veteran campaigner for cheaper fuel who is organising the scheme, it might - just might - become a reality. He has established a website called www.pipelinecard.org and says he has used his contacts in the industry to negotiate an "in principle" deal with a national fuel retailer.

He says the petrol company, which he won't name but has service stations throughout the UK, has promised to provide a discount of between 5p and 10p per litre of fuel to everyone who signs up to the website provided the number of registrations reaches a certain level.

Mr Scammel will not reveal how many people must join the scheme before the retailer will offer the discount but he has assured Times Online that the scheme requires less than 100,000 people – a figure that seems eminently achievable once news of the campaign spreads.

"We launched the website a couple of weeks ago and the idea has already caught the imagination of car enthusiasts and motoring bloggers," Mr Scammell told us.

"We already have tens of thousands of registrations but we need the word to spread further. Depending on how much publicity we get we should achieve the target by the first quarter of next year.

"The idea is very simple, there’s no charge for the card, no registration fees, and no other costs. It’s a very straightforward bulk-buying proposition."

Mr Scammell, who drives his high performance car 1,000 miles a week, said he had the idea after setting up the website www.fairfueltax.co.uk.

"Everyday you hear someone complaining about the cost of fuel – I got bored about people moaning so thought I would try to do something positive about it. All the big companies have fuel cards so why not the consumer?"

We will keep an eye on the scheme and let you know if it proves successful.

To read our latest update on the progress of this scheme, posted on February 2 click here

For more ways to save on the cost of filling up click here

For money saving tips and helpful advice on how to avoid scams and cons click here

To read about how to sell your home without an estate agent click here

Comments

[Paul D'Ambra]

Considering petrol is currently cheaper than water and that its price will inevitably rise this scheme seems to fundamentally miss the point.

Over half of all UK journeys by car are less than 5 miles and over half of them are less than 2 miles. The majority of people can walk 2 miles in about half an hour...

In the urban environment - walking, taking public transport or cycling will almost always beat or equal a car's journey time.

We need to rethink our whole approach to transport not quibble over a few pence...

Perhaps Mr Scammell would like to set up a bulk buying scheme for multi-thousand pound luxury electrical appliances that people rarely complain about the cost of but increasingly are more than happy to purchase.

[Mal Hamlett]

What a brillant Idea. I am up for it and so should every self employed indivdual in this country.

The more that sign up the bigger the discount should be.

[Dave M]

I think Mr D'Ambra has missed the point!

Multi-thousand pound luxury electrical appliances are not required as a necessity to get to and from work each day, like many car journeys are!

Not everyone lives in the "urban environment" that Mr D'Ambra talks about!

To many people the "few pence" mounts up and adds a sizable cost to an already stretched budget.

And further more - public transport is a joke, so I'd love to see Mr D'Ambra ask his employers to fit shift patterns around the local bus/train service time tables!

It's quite alright to sit and say I'm alright Jack, those "few pence" don't count, but maybe Mr D'Ambra should think about others than his apparent well off self!

[Alan Sleath]

Paul Ambra has some good points but I find it difficult to understand his argument.

If half the journeys are under 5 miles, then the other 50 per cent are over 5 miles! If his argument is that we can easily walk 2 miles which according to his statistic, is half the journeys under 5 miles, this makes 75 per cent of all journeys over 2 miles which many people can't or don't have the luxury of time to walk.

The demand of jobs and modern living, our of town shopping and business parks, make the use of cars essential. I could easily walk 10 miles, but not on a daily basis, in all weathers, to do my job or to carry large shopping bags.

I drive to work which is round trip of 45 miles and I know I'm not on my own. I would like to see alternative solutions, but the big businesses have forced many of us to move with the job, not move house, but commute.

It's unfortunate that the commute is by car as no reasonable transport is available. I notice that I am doing the same as many other workers who have to drive to their work place. Up until a short time ago I was doing a 140 mile round trip and so I now count myself lucky!

I abhor the amount of 4x4 shuttling children to school but, does Mr Ambra realise that many schools don't have lockers/desks to store school book etc. leaving pupils to lug everything around all day long.

I totally agree that, yes, the majority of us can easily walk 2 miles, this is irrelevant to the price of petrol. The majority of us who would like, nay need, prices to come down are not driving 2 miles! It's the 75 per cent, which by your figures are, "the majority" that need this scheme to work.

[Cez]

Paul, I think YOU have fundamentally missed the point.

Comparing petrol to water is like comparing apples and oranges. They are not comparable. Consumption of petrol is fundamentally different from consumption of water (are talking bottled water? tap water? distilled water?).

Where did you get your car journey facts from? And what are you talking about quibbling over a few pence, you don’t even understand that a few pence PER litre adds up to hundreds of pounds per year, and the average mileage on a car is typically 10,000 per year.

You need to re-think your approach to transport - in most cases and I’m sure most would agree with me, if you have a family and you live outside of the city its almost essential to own a car.

[jon side]

As someone who drives many many miles to fulfil my job I lose around £400 a month from filling up. At least this scheme might go some way to bring some sanity to the cost of petrol.

[Derek Gaw]

Paul D'Ambra, with those sorts of views you should thing about going into politics, what a laugh you gave me when you compared petrol to water and I laughed even harder at your I’m alright Jack attitude in your “urban environment”.

If you have checked up on the responses to your comments I would be interested to find out if your daily commute is less than 2 miles, if so do you use a car.

PS. Please could you get in contact with me and I will provide a S.A.E. for you to send that few extra pence you don’t want to quibble about and you could subsidies my fuel expenses, after all it is only a few extra pence.

[David Norfolk]

I live in a small Devon town and so commute to a larger town for work, a round trip of 70 miles per day.

What upsets me is that I cannot do my job without commuting and public transport doesn't exist for this route. However when I buy petrol to commute to work I pay for it AFTER I've already been taxed on that income.

That is to say, something that is a necessity to perform my job gets taxed twice. So the circa £2700 I spend on petrol ONLY to get to/from work per year was already subject to income tax, meaning the real cost off my salary is closer to £4000 !!!

Surely the government should offer a tax benefit to offset the cost of commuting? After all my wife commutes a similar distance but for a smaller salary where the petrol represents nearly one third of her earnings! Add to that the cost of car ownership (road tax, insurance, mot, maintenance) and it becomes uneconomical to commute to work, which in an area where the choice is commute to work or DONT work that spells bad news for the local economy...

I'd be happy with petrol prices if I didn't know I was being double taxed on it's cost!

[Luke Vincent]

Ben Scammel, makes a good point. Namely that we are not "motorists" but teachers, nurses, professional and business people.

Is it fair that a nurse or teacher has to pay an extra 20% to drive to work than they did last year, but is still taxed the same on their income? A business is at least taxed on profits after fuel costs have been deducted. These high fuel taxes hit everybody hard but particularly individuals and employees.

I wouldn't mind so much but often there is not a viable alternative to the car, because the government has not adequately invested in the infrastructure of the country. As suggested by one reader, maybe implementing something simple like lockers at schools and yellow school buses would reduce the need for so many cars on the road.

The government can't get us out of our cars by taxing us. The best way to stop us driving is to provide an easier, cheaper and more convenient solution to getting to work.

[Allan Armstrong]

Hang on a minute, the de-regulation of energy supply enables me to buy the same gas delivered down the same pipes to my home, and the same electricity down the same wires simply because various companies have negotiated prices with the "real" suppliers on my behalf.

If that is logical, then why can't I negotiate a price with a petrol supplier and have it delivered at my usual petrol station?

Pipeline is a great idea, but I feel as a major supplier gets frozen out of the scheme they will adopt their own discount card and we'll end up with price-matching (and price-fixing) again.

[PCWilkinson]

If the card does induce more competitive prices and discount schemes surely that is a good thing! After all as consumers we can choose where to spend and which loyalty card to use to give us the biggest saving!

It also grates on my nerves that I am taxed twice on travelling to work. Scandalous!

[Hugh Marcus]

I have personally registered for this card.

What it will do (should it succeed) is to give the private person access to the same prices that the major oil companies offer to business users.

They call this the "bunker" price. As the owner of a small business I get offered the oil companies cards all the time.

I find in practice that the prices using their cards are usually the same as the supermarkets price.

Where these cards become useful is they allow you to purchase fuel at supermarket prices even when you are not close to a supermarket.

[Richard Clarke]

Lets hope it works. If it does cause other major suppliers to reduce their prices as well, then the scheme has achieved its purpose. However, what we really need is reduced fuel tax and this government have already shown that they refuse to listen to the public on this issue, so I can't see any help coming from them.

Maybe Ben can use his connections to make this an election issue, so we can vote for the party that promises to substantially reduce fuel tax!

[Andy Jones]

Living in Hawick, Scotland, we have 2 petrol stations, with a 4p a litre difference between them. Many people in rural areas have to commute to work many miles away, and 4p a litre is quite a difference!

There are bus services - but as has been mentioned before, timetables don't tie into many work patterns. There are no railway stations in The Borders. Any saving will benefit those in rural areas! I just hope that the petrol provider will be one that will be of benefit to us.

[David Toase]

I've just got to say that I've read all the previous comments that came up on my screen and I have never laughed so much... thanks for cheering me up when the last thing on my mind was the price of fuel.

[Dave]

I get my diesel from a garage who tries as best they can to compete with the supermarkets' price { within 1p }. I cannot see them being able to offer 5-10p off a litre. This scheme is applauded; however I can see some fallers by the way however well intentioned.

[Iain MacLauchlan]

From acorns mighty oak trees grow. The basic idea behind collective consumer organisations is unarguably a good one and if the numbers joining the club ever reach or exceed the 100,000 mentioned by Mr Scammell then it could becomes a force to reckoned with politically as well as economically.

Though it strikes me that at some point the administration of a large organisation requires to be funded and the consumer will be diminishing or extinguishing the somewhat modest discount proposed in subscription payments!

[Ted Edward]

We all have choices. I choose to ride a motorbike to work. Its cheap to run and fun to ride. The only thing that spoils it are people who commute to work in cars causing congestion. The attitudes of car drivers is: "if I can't move, I'm blocking you pal". My reply to that is often a finger and a nice kick down the side of the car.

Seriously though, I've registered for a card, if it saves me a few bob in the course of a year, great.

[Peter Duncombe]

The idea is a good and good luck to Mr Scammell. However, the oil companies are not going to reduce their profits by giving discounts to a large group of motorists.

Companies who are not part of this scheme will have to raise prices to maintain profits and the company involved with this scheme will follow suit in order to claw back the discounts they are giving. At the end of the day this scheme will not increase the amount of petrol used and therefore will not mean cheaper petrol prices.

[Stu]

Paul D'ambra wrote:

Perhaps Mr Scammell would like to set up a bulk buying scheme for multi-thousand pound luxury electrical appliances that people rarely complain about the cost of but increasingly are more than happy to purchase.

-----------

Well... maybe because someone already has www.letsbuyit.com

[Tony dawe]

This is a d*****d good idea, but there must be some admin costs somewhere!

Couple of thoughts on petrol prices

The big oil companies are vertically integrated from oil well to consumer and probably account for over 80 per cent of the oil coming on to the market. Putting aside the cost of exploration, their costs are budgeted for the year and fixed from extraction through to distribution. Therefore any pro-rata increase in the price of end product is costed at the margin adding a sizeable increase to company profits.

Secondly, because the oil companies control such a large proportion of the world supply of oil, the commodity price of oil must be set by trading within the small subsidiary market outside the 80 per cent controlled by the majors. The question is, how free is the market for oil products? We all know about Opec, but are commercial forces also at work?

[Ragu]

Very good idea !

[Simon P]

Making these sorts of savings are great, however I am still bothered by the thought of the amount of pollution all this commuting/travelling causes, as well as all the health/environmental issues that go with it.

I think everyone misses the point in the fact that commuting has only come about with the invention of the car. We accept jobs further away knowing that we can drive there. Without a car the situation would be entirely different. We should all be looking to reduce our environmental burden on the planet (throwaway electricals included) and need a different mindset to achieve this.

Fundamentally something will have to change. Ultimately of course, our environment will not give us a choice. Starting the change now may ease the pain for us and our planet.

[Mike B]

I think this is an excellent idea and I have already signed up to the scheme. Hope all works out well. I don't disagree with some of your bloggers who say that most journeys are less that 5 miles but please bear a thought for those of us who must use our cars for financial gain.

I work long hours around various locations in the UK for a major secuirty firm. Without my motor I just simply could not work in this envirinment. The one example being one site I am based is so remote the nearest train station is 32 miles away or something like that, and I live another 50 or so on top of that so paying for public transport in this situation would leave me terribly out of pocket over what I earn. Many thanks for reading.

[Des]

My motor doesn't run on water but as petrol is cheaper I will continue to use that instead. I might get a card though...

[robert stewart]

For many years high mileage lorry companies have enjoyed the kind of significant fuel discounts denied to the ordinary motorist. Understandable, as individually we have little clout.

If together it is possible to attain whatever number of drivers necessary then that wiil be a significant feather in Ben
Scammel's cap. It will also make him a very rich man.

To do this kind of deal, he will be paid something in the region of 2-3% of our total monthly turnover by the fuel company. Of course, once he attains the numbers required, it also makes it very attractive to other fuel companies to get him to change to their brand, so anything less than 10p per litre would be a disappointment in view of the huge volume of fuel involved.

100,000 people spending only £50 per month on average [I doubt that many small mileage drivers would make the effort to sign up] would be £60 miillion per annum.

I notice that there is no disclaimer that he will not sell our e-mail addresses.

Don't get me wrong-if he can do it whilst remaining honest and straight in his dealings then I will apply for his card.

[Mike Stoddart]

Anyone who thinks that the world oil industry is dominated by the major oil companies is very much misguided. Even ExxonMobil, the biggest private oil company in the world with a market capitalization of US$365 billion, controls just 1.8% of the world's oil reserves; BP has 1.5% and Shell 1.0%. Opec owns 75% of the world's proven oil reserves. The price of oil is high because demand is high and supply can't be cranked up quickly to cope.

Another point - what is the Government supposed to do if it cuts its tax on fuel? Will you be happier paying more income tax? More VAT? Or should they cut services? Or nurses' pay?

[Alan Frost]

I agree with most of the comments. It is an excellent idea and I think Mr D'Ambra has come into some critiscm unfairly.

When I don't use my car, it is because it is not the most convenient method of transport, for example travelling to the centre of London. The demand for petrol is inelastic, so a cut in price will not see a sharp increase in petrol consumption, just like an increase in the price does not curb demand. It is about time us consumers had a fair deal, the Government receives a high share of income on petrol compared to other governments, and oil companies easily turn a profit.

[Sam G]

I notice that you moderate and approve all comments before they are allowed on your website so this is not representative of people's true views.

I'm wondering what Mr Scammell is getting out of all this? A cut from all the fuel sales? And all this information people are freely giving, seems like he stands to gain a lot from this.

He should promise to donate all but admin expenses to charity from this venture then I would be inclined to believe his motives.

[Dahman Zahrir]

At least Mr Scammell is trying to do something and I applaud him for that. I registered on his website and I am looking forward to see what happens.

[Susan Glinska]

"Sam G" - interesting he or she does not use their real name - says that because this blog is moderated (and after all, the site makes no secret of that fact), it "is not representative of people's true views".

Can Sam G prove this to be the case?

After all, his or her comments have been published, as have those opinions that, like s/he, have questioned the scheme and Mr Scammell's motives.

To me, the scheme seems to be simple genius, and I shall be looking into joining it, my eyes wide open. Caveat emptor, after all.

But if I save money, and Mr Scammell makes some money out of the scheme (and it would interesting to see his views on the scepticism aired), then there can be few objections.

[jason canvin]

Why shouldn't Ben and others make any money out of this? It annoys me that we always get people who moan about other people's ideas, and gripe at the main person involved gaining a revenue from such a scheme. Good on him I say, I hope they reel it in.

[D Gawen]

The idea is totally naive. All sorts of loyalty cards have been tried by petrol companies over the years - just by mentioning a magic money value every muppet thinks they will save that.

What you're forgetting is if this really works (and it will do, for a very short period of time), everyone will latch on and join. And other companies will bring out equivalents.

What will that have achieved? More competition in prices? Of course not you idiots! Its just shifts the attention of where the "discounts" are. The undiscounted price will just adjust over time to compensate.

Really, come on!

[paul watson]

Good on Mr Scammell. For too long the big fuel companies have held us to ransom. I back him 100%. If he makes anything on it, good for him. I don't see anybody else squaring up to the big boys. I have registered.

[maurizio taglianini]

Goodwill and benefit of the doubt are the keywords, nobody can please everybody, everytime... I have signed up!

[RosemaryT]

Good luck with your idea Ben, we have signed up. Why are some folks sceptical of others brilliant ideas and deny them any financial reward - would their idea warrant giving it to the populus for free?(if they had a great idea in the first place, that is).

[Clive Kett]

I think this is fundamentally a good idea. There may or may not be hidden catches, but if there are people like me who have signed up to the idea, and find it is not suitable for them, just stop using the card!

There can't be any form of contract, can there? I just hope that the "supplier" has a forecourt nearby, otherwise it may not be worth travelling to get the juice in the first place.

[D Gawen]

Don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with signing up, if its means a few good deals on petrol before the rest of the petrol industry then fair enough.

My point is that people are strangely thinking that this is in some way 'standing up' to the petrol companies by showing some kind of consumer power... It is not in anyway. It is effectively a loyalty card, something that has been in action in other industries for years (in fact has been used in petrol industry to a lesser degree), its main function being to encourage use of a brand/store.

There’s no catches, its just people need to get a grip and accept that its no big deal, it will make Mr Scammell a fast buck in the first hand (Good luck to him! In this respect it's a brilliant idea!), then all the other companies will bring equivalent cards out.

Hardly 'Revolution' is it!

[David Freeman]

I love the idea that supermarket petrol is cheaper! Where I live, they are part of the price fixing, and stay the same price as the surrounding stations.

There is, however, a serious flaw. Because the area is a few miles across, the same supermarket chain sells fuel cheaper in different districts. And when I challenged a cashier, I was told "the management tells us what to charge".

By driving (more fuel used) 3 miles, I can get petrol 3 or 4 pence a litre cheaper from another branch of the same supermarket!

Madness, or what?

[David Ruston]

I wonder if now is the appropriate time for Ben Scammell to answer the sceptics that this is a very clever element of marketing to allow him to earn a sizeable income. Perhaps he may be able to allay some sceptics by seeking to form a charity to manage the proceeds of the scheme and put it back into the motoring community, for which he obviously has a passion.

I note that his website does make the statement that they will not sell or pass the registration details onto 3rd party companies, and Mr Scammell should be aware that is a legally binding agreement - and he should honour it or ignore it at his peril.

I chose to register.

[BobMac]

Why do people always have to knock everything they see? Just try it, it doesn't cost anything, is doing no harm. And it is certainly not going to cause any wildly extravagant overuse of fossil fuel as you would think by reading some of the posts. You don't see many top politicians going to Westminster on a bus!

[wizza]

Anything for an easier life! Every penny counts!

[Angela]

Ummm..... all sounds a great idea but has anyone thought that pipeline get all our email and home addresses and say nothing about keeping them private. We could end up with loads of spam and rubbish if they sell em'!!

[John Haddleton]

Today - Jan 30th, I have recieved an e-mail from pipeline.org, stating that they have now achieved a total of 100,000 members - The number required in the original Times article. They now state they need more, and predict April/May for the roll-out of issuing cards, etc.

I just wonder who is going to pay for these cards....I am told on good authority (my bank manager) that plastic swipe cards cost approximately £1 each to produce and mail out...100,000 members at £1 each?? and they insist they will be free.

This is beginning to sound like a scam to me...please restore my faith, and assure me it is not.

[BobMac]

And which petrol company is that you work for John?

[bobmac]

100,000 members at £1.00 a time would result in no profit for the organisers according to your figures John, if your bank manager is correct!

[Rathindra Nath Gupta]

It would be fair if Mr. Ben Scammell would clarify the cost issue ( i.e £100,000.00 for 100,000 cards) raised by Mr.John Haddleton. Alternatively publish the best estimated cost and who will bear it.

[Will Turner]

Well on hearing about this today i've decided to sign up - even if I have to pay the £1 for the card, I'd gladly do it for a saving of 5-10p a litre! Less than half a tank and I've got that back!

As for taking an alternative to petrol I would gladly if the alternative were there, and by alternative I mean something that will provide similar timescales to a journey. I travel a 50 mile round trip to work, in the birmingham area. Any public transport would take me over two hours (presuming it all runs on time) compared to 45 mins in rush hour traffic. I'd move closer but old student debts and rising house prices mean thats not possible.

[Rita & PIeter Grootendorst]

Is it a scam, is it too good to be true? Is this perhaps a predictable response to rip-off by corporate Britain. I know environmental researchers have tested Shell's environmental claims and find they get a curt refusal if asked for any funding.

We are falling into the hands of global power-brokers and we feel we are in unsafe hands with incompetent government navel gazing. Buyer beware methinks. What guarantees are there with this scheme. My husband is a commuter and we pay through the nose for everything.

[Daniel]

To all those who say that their car is a necessity for work, why do you live so far away from your place of work? You have the option to move closer, you do not have to live miles out of the city, it is your choice, and thus the petrol costs you incur are a dierct result of that choice.

[BobMac]

No Daniel, that is just childishly simplistic,there are lots of other factors that influence people's choice of where to live. Many people live in the more rural areas because of problems in cities like property costs, crime figures, noise polution, dirt and grime, overcrowding, no open spaces, family considerations, just because your job changes location why should you ask a partner to give up a job or children to change school? From a social point of view have you ever tried saying 'Good morning' to anyone in London for example, they look at you like you are mad! Not all of us want to live like ants.

[P West]

"To all those who say that their car is a necessity for work, why do you live so far away from your place of work? You have the option to move closer, you do not have to live miles out of the city"

Ha ha. I currently live in a studio flat (i.e. 0 bedrooms) and commute 35 miles each way. I can't afford a property closer to work, and can't get a job on equivalent pay closer to home. Well done Daniel, you obviously live in the real world.

As for any thoughts of Ben Scammell making a profit - who cares if it saves money?
And as for this not changing anything, "because other companies will release similar schemes" - you mean other companies may reduce prices too? Great! Even if lower prices only lasted 3 months, that would still save me money. Where's the loss here?

[Peter Routh]

Briliant idea, hope it works.