e-Poll: Should disgraced MPs give up their pensions?

Many MPs forced to resign after being embroiled in the ongoing expenses scandal will walk away with million pound taxpayer-funded pensions, it was revealed this week.

Tory MP Andrew MacKay, who was forced to resign along with his wife Julie Kirkbride (pictured above), will be able to draw a pension worth around £40,000 a year. A non-MP would need a £1.4 million pension pot to buy the same income on the open market.

Douglas Hogg, the Tory MP who claimed second home allowance to clean a moat, is on course for the equivalent of a £1.25 million pension pot after 30 years as an MP.

Shamed Labour MP,  Elliot Morley, who claimed for a mortgage that had already been paid off, will also do well. He will get an annual pension of about £33,000 a year, which would require a £949,400 pot on the open market.

Margaret Moran, who claimed £22,500 to treat dry rot at her Southampton home while MP for Luton, can expect a pension of £19,500 a year, equivalent to a pot of £551,623 after 13 years in the job.

Do you think MPs found guilty of abusing the expenses system should be forced to give up some of their extremely generous pensions? Or do you think, whatever they have done, they are entitled to take their pension in full?

Vote in our online poll and leave your comments below.

Online Surveys & Market Research

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Comments

[RAY ANDERS]

Definetly, think it would be better if they were, like the Japanese who bring shame, to fall on their swords, Why should they retain anything, they are a disgrace.

[Fenton Queue]

"Should disgraced MPs give up their pensions?"

Yes. And MPs who commit fraud should give up their liberty.

[B. Harrison]

There needs to be a review of the British and European legal systems. Fraud is a criminal offence. Politicians and senior executives should receive the same penalty as would a junior bank clerk found guilty of the same offence.

[Steve]

You pose the question....

Should disgraced MPs give up their pensions?

A real leader of the country would NOT leave the decision in their hands.

A real leader WOULD decide that they will not have pensions.

A real leader WOULD evaluate the decision to prosecute as fraud has happened.

The decision should NOT be theirs, but the LEADERS...

A true leader would know this...

[Edward Devoy]

They should not have the choice, it should be taken from them. Anyone who has stolen public money, regardless of the excuse should be sacked with no payoff whatsoever. Whilst this may seem an extreme action, unless these people are punished in this way the next lot in power will have no compunction in also taking advantage of the system. We will never rid ourselves of the self serving greedy politicians. Any punishments should go back at least 10 years to make sure those who have left do not get away with their misdeeds.

[Lara Turner]

I think that the MP'S should suffer like the rest of us and experiance standard flat rate pensions that every other pensioner in this country has to accept, as delivered by the Goverment.
The people of the UK who work and slave for what,,, to fill MP'S pockets, this is outrageous and should not be allowed, they should not be living a life of luxury whilst the rest of us are straining just to Survive!!!!! get rid of them all and bring in new honest leaders

[Arthur Harvey]

Yes they should! But this is not enough!We hear all the MPs saying an administrative mistake! or, I will pay the money back!! Sack them get them on trial for fraud! Let the jury decide!!! I have worked 26 yrs armed forces,4 yrs with the police as a trainer,14 yrs NHS a total pension of £15,000!!!!? Still working.

[Gordon Brown M.P.]

Absolutely not! And anyone who says they should, is a complete imbecile!

[Tony Blair]

Pssst! Hey Gordon! D'ya still wanna be Prime Minister? Ha ha ha ha.

[John DeVries]

Damn it, I pressed the wrong button. I meant to say no they should not have a single penny and should be flogged as well.

[John DeVries]

P.S. and they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[Robert]

of course not, any more than they should be forced to hand over their life savings. Pensions are not some sort of gift, they are part of the employment contract. If they have commited a crime they should be preosecuted. If they haven't they should be left alone. Robert

[John DeVries]

Damn it I pressed the wrong button. I meant to say that they shouldn't get a single brass farthing and should be flogged as well.

They should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law - just like any one of us would be.

[Michael Webb]

Does this question even need to be asked? Of course they should not be given still more gravy after having snuffled in the trough for so long! As a teacher I recall I was unable to claim even a modest petrol allowance for making long return journeys from home for Parents' Evenings at school - being unable, of course, to run a taxpayer-funded second home close to work! An MP-style food allowance would have been nice too - or the opportunity to employ my wife and children as clerical help when dealing with exam marking and end-of-term reports, then charge it to the County Education Department. Anybody who has ever worked all his/her life for a "normal" wage and a "normal" pension is seething with a rage that will take a long time to fade.

P.S. A confession - I still have two red ballpoint pens and an ink eraser I forgot to return to my school when I retired in 1995. It was a genuine mistake as I was busy at the time! I am prepared to face the press or appear on television to defend myself - and will of course be returning the full cost of these items to my local authority, possibly even before the next election.

[susan lax]

We must prossecute these people for what they have done.These are the very people who make our Laws & Tax us to the hilt.Tell us that there is not enough money in the pot for some cancer treatments etc.While all along gorging themselves 24/7.If we acted like them in our own jobs the police would be called & we would be prossecuted then sacked with a criminal record.If the Tax man/Vat man caught us they ha would fine us heavily & try to close the business down.These people are not there for the good of the counry or it's people but for what they can steel off the overtaxed.The greatest sadness of all of this is that most of them have more wealth than the avarage person seen.Please Mr Brown direct me to a job where i can claim free food (£400) for my family every month & a second home because i have to commute 2 hours every day.If it was for the good of the country Mr Brown would have resigned by now with the shame of leading such a corrupt Parliment but no there is money still to be taken,hence my road tax having to go up by £5 this month.

[Bruvafromanuvamuva]

I'm not sure who to vote for this Thursday - the one who shakes his fist a lot, the racist one, the no-hoper, the one who only cares about one thing, or the one who's had his snout in the trough?

[Alexandra Oliveira-Jones]

UK citizens, please take a step back and put this expenses scandal in perspective.

Yes, it might be excessive what MPs are allowed to claim, and at times plainly greedy, but most MPs have been following the rules (which I suppose have always been public to anyone who wants to learn about them), when flipping homes, furnishing houses, etc.

More importantly, the offences of claiming reimbursement e.g. for a duck's new home (which was never paid by the fees office anyway), toilette seats, a pair of spectacles to an MP's wife, chocolate bars and crisps, are ridiculously negligible when compared to real political fraud and corruption.

In most countries in Europe, not only do MPs receive a much better basic salary than in the UK, they (and their spouses) routinely lavish on travelling and other perks, control the media, control the police, place political peers in the board of major national companies, grant businesses to friends and other favours regardless of the good or bad to their citizens, not even mentioning real mafia dominating some governments.

Look no further than the European parliament (which I understand does not attract much media interest in the UK) where e.g. travel expenses are paid in a huge lump sum irrespective of how much travels cost (I heard this is now about to change to claims against receipts, although MEPs say this would 'force' them to travel business class).

You are lucky to have MPs succumbing to mere trivial offences (after all, only saints resist temptation), and to have such a powerful, dynamic and independent media. I am amazed at how people in power in the UK resign so promptly, particularly under public pressure.

I am Portuguese, married to an English man and living in central Europe. I know where I can look up to when it comes to real democracy, and it is not in Continental Europe.

[Mark]

I think that if the MP in question is proved to have committed fraud then they should be made to give up their pension, as surely this would constitute a breach of contract on their part, therefore invalidating any rights they should have to a pension under the contract.

[Peter Lewiston]

It would be a bad precedent to attack people's pension rights, no matter how appalling an individual MP's behaviour. Other means can be used where fraudulent activity is found.

[Steve Jones]

The last time I heard someone had lawnmowers up in his attach, he lost his pension. He was very lucky that he didn't go to prison. There again, somethings are kept very quite...

[Martin Lloyd]

MP's wanted Fred Goodwin to give up part/all of his pension, so they should have the principles to give up theirs

[HUW DAVIES]

Their pension entitlement should revert to a level more in keeping with the experience of the country in general. At best, a contributory 1 - 60th of "career average salary" per year of service,which would factor in any ministerial earnings, accessed at 65 or completion of say 30 years service.Given the prevailing climate perhaps a money purchase fund would be more appropriate with MP's investing 6% and the state 10%, and taking benefits reflecting fund performance at 60 - 65. Less tempting to screw up the nation's economy if a touch more dependent on its performance !!

[Harriet Harman]

What does the "Court of Public Opinion" have to say ?

[Chris Swain]

The most corrupt government, in the most corrupt parliament in history, is leading us through the worst recession in living memory! Extremely ominous.
Unfortunately, unlike the private sector, the government isn't required to abide by a measurement of success. Hence, all of the corrupt MPs will be allowed to leave with handsome benefits, having dismally failed the electorate. We pay for failure! Bizarre!!

[Noel woutersz]

There should not be any problem in coming to the conclusion that where there is a clear case of fraud MP's should like the rest of the voters be brought to justice. The system should ensure that all these cases are not discharged as simple 'mistakes'!

[Bill Jones]

I think it's far more important that they should be prosecuted for Fraud.

[Mom]

They should all pay back every bit of money that they took( stole) from the taxpayers.

[richard]

MP should "suffer" the same tax, pension and salery as their average voter.

The MP's should only have a standard state pension, and a average salary for their voters. If their voters do better, the MP does better.

Without this the MP become a distant elect, and does not suffer from the taxes and laws they enact.

[peter]

They should be guillotined.

[D Kendrick]

An MP who has committed fraud or accepted or solicited bribes has broken the LAW and has by the Laws governing the House of Commons lost the right to a seat in Parliament.

No elected member has the right to a seat in the Commons who has a criminal conviction or warrant against them.

The MP'S concerned appointed the staff to sign off their fraudulent claims so having a third party approve the expenses does not absolve them of the fraud.

These MP'S are only the stupid ones who were caught out, without the intelligence or ability to gain greater corruptions or influence. I'm not worried about these fools. Its the ones we haven't caught because of Parliaments secrecy and the bungs culture.

[Chris]

I get tax credits right so now I've had a reduction because Ive been overpayed, wait for it, £124 more OVER A YEAR than I should have gotten. I HAVE TO PAY THIS BACK.
So now for about 5 months I have to suffer a reduction in my tax credit allowance its down to £88.
This expense scandal is a freeking joke. If I had the benefits that MP's are allowed I would be a very happy & rich Man. YES MP's SHOULD GIVE BACK THE MONEY THEY HAVE SYSTEMATICALLY STOLEN & GIVE UP THERE ENTIRE PENSIONS FOR THE CRIME, CRIMINALLY PROSECUTE THEM TOO FOR FRAUD, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE WOULD HAVE TO IN A NORMAL JOB.

[Chris]

As my above comment, it just shows how ENDEMIC CORRUPTION is in the world period.

GROSS missues of tax payers money & trust.

I for one will never vote Labour or Conservative ever again for my entire lifetime.

[carole mills]

This government has raided everyone else's private pensions and rendered them worthless forcing all of the working population to work longer, whilst they retire up to 20 years earlier on our money.
They should all give up their pensions and the money saved should be used to fund care for the elderly who are forced to use their savings and sell their houses to pay for care having paid taxes all their lives from modest incomes.

[mac rutherford]

This whole matter has gone too far now, with the bankers like Fred Goodwin, ( God, I loathe this creep!) & now the MP's pocketing loads of cash whether 'good' or bad,& all keeping their pensions for abject failure,which shows our whole system of finance & goverment since the dreadful Thatcher days has gone from bad to worse.The country is left with no moral leadership, no structure, no heroes, apart from Vince Cable,one of the few untarnished MP's who also speaks sense & understands the public anger on this matter.If these people do not come up with the goods, they should certainly NOT be rewarded with enormous pensions, & should have to return all their ill gotten gains to us, the people who have paid for it.

[andy]

If I committed a fraudulent act in my job I would be sacked with loss of all benefits.
At best I can look forward to a pension equal to that of Mrs Moran, but this will take 26 years of service and cost me 10% of my salary in contributions- compared to her 13 yrs and NO CONTRIBUTIONS.

[Diana]

This government has attacked private pensions by removing the tax credit on dividends, which over the life time of a working person will have a huge impact on his accumulated pension pot. The government is having another "pop" at private pensions in the latest finance bill (read the HMRC legislation, it barely touches those people with defined benefit pensions such as MPs).

Add to that the fact that an person with a private pension is dependent on annuity rates when he retires, whereas a defined benefit pension (like those of MPs) does not.

The point I am trying to make is that MPs have no idea how cushy their pensions are. It's the same old, same old - one rule for them, one for us. Why would THEY worry about annuity rates? Doesn't bother them. Why would THEY worry about the removal of the tax credit on dividends? Doesn't bother them.

Why would THEY worry that the real stock market return 1997 - 2009 has FALLEN by 26.3%? (FTSE 100 on 1/5/1997: 4450; FTSE 100 on 22/4/2009: 4030). IT DOESN'T BOTHER THEM.

Do the maths on the figures provided: we would need to be putting over £30K a year into a pension to achieve the RISK-FREE payout they are getting.

Just like e.g. Stamp Duty doesn't bother them - they don't pay it. Just like self-assessment tax returns don't bother them - they pay someone else to do it and reclaim the lot.

MPs MUST face the same pension risk that the rest of us face. And that can only be achieved if they have defined contribution salaries. Only then can we trust them to make decisions in OUR interests, not theirs.

I hope they are intelligent enough to understand what a fantastic perk they have in their pension schemes (but sadly I doubt it, as they all claim that they aren't paid enough).

They make me sick

[Cedric Crawley]

I agree that the worst cases should be prosecuted. Minor cases should follow the Tax Authorities example and be made to repay 5 times the amount unjustifiably claimed.

[martin brookes]

These criminals must be treated like everyone else,and not seen to be above the law.Police inaction so far is raising eyebrows,are we seeing even more manipulation of the law behind closed doors?

[Phil]

An ugly poll. The MPs concerned have broken no law, and broken no rule. Th rules were stupid, but most of us would act the same as they have if our employer offered such a process.
We are turning into a vigilante society, not one of laws, and I am disappointed that the Times should encourage this. Of course they should keep their pension(s).

[eddie]

These parasites and thieves deserve nothing, they have already featherbedded themselves at tax payers expense why should we give them any more of our money. Why should you or I pay extortionate taxes on everything including petrol to get to work to pay the bloody taxes when robbing dishonest parasites like these MP's are then looting it from the public purse? Why are the police not making arrests given the fraud that has been committed by some of these criminals?

[Dek Crossingham]

OK So they manipulated the "rules" for personal gain. That does not make their actions right.

It would be interesting for them to be investigated by HMRC and have to explain how their bank accounts have fattened disproportionately to their declared incomes.
Benefits in Kind are taxable!

Thieves and parasites the lot of them and not fit for purpose.
Get rid!

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